The time is upon us! Hopefully you have had a chance over the last week to either take your first steps, or make a return journey, to the world of London Below.
Richard Mayhew made a big mistake–he stopped to help. It is a mistake that has changed everything. And if you stopped reading at the end of Chapter 5, this week’s stopping point, then you ain’t seen nothin’ yet. 🙂
Let’s talk about Neverwhere.
1. What do you think of our two villains thus far, Messrs. Croup and Vandemar?
“There are four simple ways for the observant to tell Mr. Croup and Mr. Vandermar apart: first, Mr. Vandemar is two and a half heads taller than Mr. Croup; second, Mr. Croup has eyes of a faded china blue, while Mr. Vandermar’s eyes are brown; third, while Mr. Vandermar fashioned the rings he wears on his right hand out of the skulls of four ravens, Mr. Crouop has no obvious jewelry; fourth, Mr. Croup likes words, while Mr. Vandermar is always hungry. Also, they look nothing alike.”
With those two sentences, Gaiman had me. I knew this was a book for me. I remember laughing aloud when I read them over fifteen years ago now and they bring a smile to my face today.
Croup and Vandemar. What a couple of swell villains. Larger than life, nearly vaudevillian in their sinister demeanor, a delight to read. They aren’t just good villains because they are a couple of nasty pieces of work. They are good villains because we aren’t quite sure just what they are. “A fox and a wolf” was Richard Mayhew’s first impression. I like them. They fill their roles quite well.
2. Thus far we’ve had a small taste of London Below and of the people who inhabit it. What do you think of this world, this space that lies within or somewhat overlaps the space the “real world” occupies?
I have always found Gaiman’s creation of London Below to be such an interesting way to treat not only the spaces in between spaces, or the spaces that are hidden and out of the way, but also and interesting way in which to treat the homeless. People that are beneath one’s notice in the “real” London somehow ride this edge of the world of London Above and the world of London Below. Gaiman reveals more about this world as the story unwinds and I do not want to reveal too much more about that. Suffice it to say that the adventurous side of me would like very much to travel those roads, to see those places. The more sane part of me would prefer not getting involved. Ha!
3. What ideas or themes are you seeing in these first 5 chapters of Neverwhere? Are there any that you are particularly drawn to?
I’m certainly drawn to the “Alice in Wonderland”-esque idea of falling through a rabbit hole. In Richard’s case, the rabbit hole came to him in the form of the Lady Door. Instead of a rabbit, Richard is led deeper in by a rat, 😉 . What makes it fun is that Richard is more oblivious than Alice was. He takes longer to recognize that his reality has shifted. This builds on one of the themes, or plot lines, about there being a greater world around us. Suddenly those manhole covers or small alleyways you pass every day become pathways to a bigger world. The people who are ignored or passed over or not even seen are real people, people trying to survive, people having their own adventures, people that might have something to give into your life.
When I was a kid I would daydream about finding that doorway into adventure, that portal to another world. And it wasn’t always the science fictional “other world” out there in outer space. Often those daydreams were about finding that hole, the one that led to a place just below us, teeming with life and adventure that we knew nothing about. I’ve talked before about how Neverwhere hearkens back to those moments in my childhood and why I connect with it so strongly because of that. It is a big part of the book’s power for me.
And even though Richard is an adult, and not a youth, I do see a “coming of age” element to this story. Richard doesn’t know who he is. He hasn’t figured it out. He thinks he has. But then a girl falls at his feet, a girl apparently injured, covered with blood. And his whole life changes. A small shift opens up all kinds of possibilities, leaving Richard between two worlds. I think we’ve all felt that way before, probably multiple times. Richard hasn’t figured it all out yet, and I look forward to traveling some more with him over the next few weeks.
4. We’ve met a number of secondary characters in the novel, who has grabbed your attention and why?
Old Baily is one of my absolute favorites, something that will probably be even more apparent as the story unfolds. He is an interesting character living in an interesting place. There is something special there about him right from the start, even though he appears to be a bit off-kilter. I like how he takes to Richard right away. He is a good sort. I would definitely want to be on good terms with Old Bailey. I’d hang out and have starling with him any time.
5. As you consider the Floating Market, what kind of things does your imagination conjure up? What would you hope to find, or what would you be looking for, at the Market?
Be it the Floating Market or the fair beyond the village of Wall (in Stardust), my imagination runs wild at the images Gaiman conjures up. It probably isn’t surprising, however, that my first thought turns to books. And without a doubt I would want to find “unwritten” works by my favorite authors, “living” book cover illustrations, old tomes filled with dodgy magic.
One of you fellow bloggers and I talked once about having some form of bottled nostalgia. I’d want to find that too. That elixir that would take me right back to memorable feelings and sensations from my youth or from various periods within my life. It would be cool, if used sparingly.
I’d also like to find some of the toys I lost over the years, my old Hot Wheels cars, my first Star Wars action figures, that one library book that I remember reading over and over again but cannot recall the title or author.
6. If you haven’t already answered it in the questions above, what are your overall impressions of the book to this point?
Neverwhere is a cherished treasure to me. I’ve lost most objectivity to it after all these years of adventuring with Richard and Door. I love each and every one of these characters, from the heroes to the villains to those in between. They feel like family. They most certainly are friends. Gaiman plays me like a drum with this one, he’s got my number, and I’m thrilled to be caught within the story’s web.
Alright, let’s see what you all think. I would encourage you to visit each others’ sites, so please leave your links below. And please remember, we don’t have to agree. Share your true thoughts and feelings and let’s have fun talking about the book! As a reminder, here is the schedule for Part 2 of our group read:
Read Chapter 6 through Chapter 6 through Chapter 12, May 20th-May 27th. Discussions for this section posted Monday, May 28th.
Happy discussing, everyone!
I like your analogy to Alice down the rabbit hole, but with Richard being a bit more oblivious. I have enjoyed all of Gaiman’s works that i have laid paws on. Perhaps, in the Floating Market there would be a lost Gaiman work or two, like a sequel to Neverwhere?
Yes indeed, that would be one of the books I would certainly want to track down! Good call!
Have you seen the BBC serial version? I’d be curious to know what you think of it.
Yes I have and I like it very much. It isn’t as fully realized a story, which is why Gaiman wrote it into novel form, but it has some of the spirit of what Gaiman was trying to create. I’ve been a fan of Dr. Who since childhood so the low production values don’t bother me in the slightest and I’m really fond of many of the actor/actress choices. I hope folks will watch the show after we are done reading the book so that we can discuss it as well.
I remember it being excellent, and some of the casting was spot on. Clive Russell and Hywel Bennett as Vandemar and Croup were excellent and very creepy. I also have vivd memories of Peter Capaldi as the Angel Islington and Trevor Peacock as Old Bailey. It was one of those little gems that pops up on BBC 2 from time to time. 🙂
Yes, I can’t help but see those guys when I read about Croup and Vandermeer. And Peacock is a favorite from The Vicar of Dibley and he so perfectly embodies Old Bailey.
The books were the first thing that I thought of in the Floating Market. I’m sure they’d have all the stories that were never written down and all of the books that fell through the cracks of time. I could get lost for days there.
I like that Vandemar and Croup so far fall under the bumbling comical villain archetype. They’re so much fun even though they’re deadly. I wonder what exactly they are…
They are a lot of fun. I get the impression they’ve been highly effective in the past and that they just can’t quite get this one right this far. But they are very persistent.
Ah, Carl, thanks for getting me involved in this remarkable journey. Like you, I laughed aloud at the Croup and Vandemar passage you quoted. Gaiman’s way with words wins out every time.
Yes, he has that magic touch, that is for sure. Glad you are enjoying it.
That part cracked me up, too!
I was telling my son that I was reading this book and when I described Richard mayhew’s descent to London Below, Eric said, “Sounds like an ‘Alice in Wonderland’ tale … so yes! Your connection with Alice works well …
I also have been thinking about your comment on Gaimen’s treatment of the homeless. He does bring the homeless into the story early on when that old woman tells Richard that she’s been homeless after offering him a coin to help him along the way … being homeless, I think, gets carried further with Richard’s loss of his comfy life that’s been built during his time in London and I’m willing to bet that he will question his sense of being at home in his own skin as his values are tested further. I’m glad you talked about this idea, as it will keep me thinking on this theme.
Love your sense of hunting at the Market … here I am all practical and you’re thinking on a much more spiritual level! Ha!
Gaiman wrote a short story once that I think fits well within this universe that also deals with the homeless. It is called The Sweeper of Dreams. You can watch Gaiman read it here:
http://www.twylah.com/neilhimself/tweets/191934717522739201
Hey, I’d find some practical oddities at the market too, no doubt! 🙂
Oh, you’re so right about losing objectivity about it – me too! Although that’s one of the reasons I like these discussions so much, because reading everyone else’s ideas means new insights and different takes on things. I hadn’t thought of the Alice connection. And I knew you’d be looking for interesting things at the Market 🙂 see, I’m such a hopeless shopper I couldn’t even think what I’d look for…
I’m glad I’m not the only one GC. I too get new and different insights from these discussions, whether its my first time reading a book or a re-read like this one.
Hey Carl, just checkin in 😀 This book sounds like it holds a very special place in your heart…I love books like that 😉
I’m glad you checked in! 🙂 Hope all is going well with you. This book does hold a very special place in my heart.
Wonderland is a perfect comparison because of the edge of insane danger that is omnipresent.
The one thing that really confused me about the Floating Market is that nobody was stealing anything from Harrods, not even food. This struck me as very strange, but I assume that we will get an explanation at some point.
I think that it’s just because that nothing there has any use to most of the people of London Below, they tend to be more interested in items with some history (genuine lost items!) and they find value in that than the object on it’s own. That and to steel from the store would draw eventual attention they may not want.
That’s how I see it anyway.
I agree, Bart. I think whatever they use either has to be given or has to have fallen through the cracks, like them.
Oh, well said: “the edge of insane danger that is omnipresent.” I was thinking it was like Wonderland because of the whole going through the “rabbit” hole element, but that observation is spot-on.
I love this book and actually Carl I think I got the recommendation from you! Such a brilliant piece of escapism.
Coup and Vandemar are such excellently bad baddies! And it is very much like falling into Wonderland with a dash of Labyrinth thrown in for good measure. I’m not reading along with this one unfortunately but it’s still good fun to read all the discussion.
Lynn 😀
I’m so happy to hear it Lynn. I’m glad you are following the discussion. It is understandable, there are a few going on now that I’d like to participate in but there is just too much going on right now.
I missed the Alice in Wondeland connection,seems like a really good one though, makes me wonder what’s still to come…
Can’t believe I didn’t think of looking for more books in the market, duh!
My mind always goes straight to books, Sarah, lol! I even went used bookstore shopping on my recent vacation.
You know despite the rather obvious comparison and the number of times I’ve read the book, I’ve never picked up on the Alice in Wonderland theme before
There is certainly some inspiration there, and of course it helps that my hardback copy of the book has another author making the Alice in Wonderland connotation. I’ve never been able to get that out of my mind after having read that.
Totally agree with the Alice in Wonderland analogy! I love how Gaiman’s London Below seems so plausible. It’s not such a far jump from reality to imagine people surviving in the tunnels of subways, is it?
I think nrlymrtl’s got the right idea to look for a lost sequel to Neverwhere in the Floating Market. How about a Read Along group field trip? 😉
It really isn’t a big jump from reality, which lends it a degree of believability and thus keeps the story focused on the characters and the journey.
Let’s take that field trip…but let’s not cross that bridge to get there!
I feel like I’m not getting it and it sucks because I see you and so many others enjoying it so far and I hope my enthusiasm catches up with everyone.
I’m sorry, Sarah. Knowing that not every book is for everyone is probably of little comfort. I do hope you stick with it and that your enjoyment increases, but please don’t feel bad about it if it doesn’t click with you.
What’s funny about your Alice in Wonderland comparison (and now that you’ve said that I can’t believe I missed it!) is that this is not the first time I’ve heard someone compare one of Gaiman’s books with A in W. In the very first children’s lit course I ever took, my professor had us read Coraline and A in W back-to-back. (At the time, the biggest similarity I saw between the two were the cat characters.) I see a lot more similarities between Neverworld and A in W, and I think you’re right about it being a “coming of age” book of sorts.
This is great fun, Carl! So glad you decided to do this.
I hadn’t made the Alice in Wonderland connection either, possibly because Richard actively went looking for Door and the Marquis, whereas Alice more or less fell into Wonderland. The people Richard met are every bit as strange, though.
Carl the more I find out about your love of English novels the more I want you to visit England. I was at Oxford University yesterday and saw and heard about many of the influences for Alice in Wonderland. The guide even pointed out the tree that was the inspiration for the Cheshire cat. You are going to love it here.
I’m loving the villains. I don’t know what they are, but I know they make me giggle. It seems odd to like the villains, but I just can’t help it. We’ll see if that changes.
I haven’t paid too much attention to Old Bailey, but I think I better start.
Thanks for hosting. I’m loving the book!
PS…if you find my Hot Wheels toys with yours, can we share. I do miss them.
I’m so glad I decided to take part in the discussion even though I’m not actively participating in the group read! It’s great knowing what everybody else thinks about it, and reading about little things I missed but somebody else picked up on. 🙂
Oh, and I love your Floating Market choices!
Exactly what I was going to say! With those possibilities, the Floating Market suddenly got more interesting than I remember Gaiman making it…with all due respect to Gaiman, of course. 😉
I disliked Croup from the first mention. Here is a little snippet from the web “Croup is characterized by a loud cough that resembles the barking of a seal, and difficulty breathing.”. As a kid I suffered from croup cough and so it resurrected a whole set of unfound memories.
Appropriate and memorable.
Sorry I’m late! I just put up my post now… and I’ll be back and read yours tomorrow… Just wanted to check-in.
Carl,
I love that you mentioned the coming of age thing. I had noticed hat Richard has no idea of who/what he is, and no control over his life (and no interest in controlling it), but that’s part of it too.
Thank you for hosting the group read, it’s interesting to read so many different takes!
I love the exchange between Richard and Door when they first get to talk.
“No. It’s just Door.”
“How do you spell it?”
“D-o-o-r. Like something you walk through to go places”
Which is what happens to Richard when he meets Door. He goes places he never expected.