My how time flies!

It is nearly the halfway point of The 2012 Science Fiction Experience and it is time for the first of our two-part discussion of the second book in Isaac Asimov’s Foundation trilogy, Foundation and Empire. The questions below are merely to act as discussion points and the various participants may or may not choose to answer them all. Please understand that there are potential spoilers in my answers as well as those of the other participating members. And as always, please feel free to join in on the discussion regardless of whether you are reading along with us or not. If you do, please restrict your comments to the part of the story we’ve already read and do not spoil anything for those who are reading this book for the first time.

And here we go!

1. In the opening chapters of Foundation and Empire we get to see things from the Imperial side. What are your thoughts on this part of the book? Were you surprised to find parts of the Galactic Empire that still seemed to be thriving?

It has been long enough since my first reading of Foundation and Empire that I had completely forgotten about this portion of the book. I am much more familiar with the story line that begins near the end of this first half of our reading and that portion of the book dominates my memories.

I was not surprised to see the Galactic Empire thriving per se, but in a way I was surprised simply because the first book, Foundation, concentrates so much on the planet of Terminus and its surrounding worlds that it is easy to become myopic and feel as if the universe is dominated by the growing Foundation, when in fact it remains a mere flyspeck with only a handful of the enormous galaxy under its influence.

I enjoy seeing things briefly from the heart of the galaxy where the Foundation is barely known, if known at all.

2. The examination of psychohistory continues in this book. What are your thoughts about the statement that was made: “Seldon’s laws help those who help themselves” in light of our previous discussions about Seldon, his predictions, and the interaction of the individuals that we are exposed to in the story?

One of the most entertaining things in this portion of the book was how much Barr’s conversations with Devers and others echoed the conversations we had when discussing Foundation regarding the role of the individual in the concept of Seldon’s psychohistory. Through both characters we get the sense of how the Foundation has changed in the years since trader Hober Mallow helped to bring about economic dependence upon the Foundation by the planets nearest Terminus. It makes things so much more interesting having this seemingly contradictory idea that history can be predicted based on scientific means that include the prediction of mass behavior and seeing how individuals make such an impact on that history. I look forward to seeing, or in my case being reminded of, how this plays out as we read the second half of this book and the final book of the trilogy.

3. How do you feel about Devers, Barr and Bel Riose? Did you like this section of the book and/or these characters? Was there anything about their stories that stood out to you, entertained you, annoyed you?

I enjoyed them, although not as much as Salvor Hardin and Hober Mallow before them. Bel Riose makes a formidable enemy and perhaps the first one that seems that he has both the drive and the intelligence to go toe-to-toe with the type of character that helped the Foundation thrive during previous Seldon crises. Barr is a very interesting character who I will discuss more in a later question. Devers isn’t my favorite though he does have his moments. He is a bit restless and impatient though his personality does make a nice counterbalance to the devotion of Barr.

Although we only see this briefly, it was interesting to see Asimov bring about Bel Riose’s demise because of the power of the desire to remain in power. The Emperor’s devious cunning of making sure to eliminate any credible competition for his power not only echoes ancient times but can also be seen as an interesting commentary about how current Western political systems often resort to infighting, to eating their own young as it were, and how that behavior may keep power for the moment but is harmful in the long run. The Emperor’s behavior reminded me so much of Robert Graves’ excellent historical fiction of ancient Rome in I, Claudius and Claudius the God. If you desire to have the history of Rome and the time of the Caesars come alive, pick up these novels. They are gripping.

4. Perhaps continuing from Question 2, do you agree or disagree, and what are your thoughts on, Barr’s devotion to Seldon and his belief that the “dead hand of Seldon” was guiding the events that led up to Riose’s undoing.

Barr’s devotion to Seldon and psychohistory is one of near religious devotion, his faith in Seldon’s “dead hand” guiding all things regardless of how bleak things look with Bel Riose’s successes is very interesting in contrast to the way that Hardin and Mallow saw did things. Maybe “contrast” is the wrong word because both of those men also had their own version of “faith” in Sedlon’s plan, but in Barr we see how so much time has turned Seldon into an almost religious figure in his own right, and not one brought about by a manipulation of people for control but brought about by time and legend and devotion.

As this is fiction we are talking about I find that I don’t have any issue at all with this idea that history is unfolding in an inevitable and predictable pattern. We as readers have been manipulated after a fashion to cheer for the Foundation, to want to see Seldon’s dead hand reach out and guide things the way the need to go for the Foundation’s success because the “good guys” in the story are the members of the Foundation. I did not focus on these aspects at all during my first read through and instead was just carried along on a wave of the good feeling of experiencing a story unlike anything I had previously read. This time I am getting a real kick out of the circular “logic” of Seldon’s psychohistory and the way in which Asimov’s hand is guiding things for us as readers. As Spock would say: “Fascinating”.

5. Did you think I was lying to you when I said in previous conversations that there are more female characters in books 2 and 3, LOL, since we didn’t get to Bayta until near the end of this portion of the read?

Yes, I began to wonder if I was lying to myself! As I mentioned earlier, I had completed blanked on this portion of the novel. Foundation and Empire, in my memory, was all about Toran and Bayta and the mysterious character known as the Mule. The fact that this first portion merely introduced us to these characters and little more was a complete surprise to me. Not an unpleasant surprise, necessarily, but one in which I kept thinking about my bold promises of more interesting female characters in the remaining books of the trilogy.

6. We haven’t spent much time with them yet, but talk about your initial impressions of Toran and Bayta.

I like Toran and Bayta. I am a sucker for romance in fiction and while I am not always conscious of the fact, I can look back over my reading in any given year and realize that I can’t go too long on any given reading pattern without working in some book that has some sort of romantic relationship in it. It doesn’t take more than a few minutes with Bayta “on screen” for me to become devoted to her. She appears, at least in these beginning chapters, to have a nice mix of self-sufficiency and devotion to her husband. I like seeing strong male and female characters who don’t have to eschew marital devotion to demonstrate their strength. I enjoyed Toran’s father’s reaction to Bayta and found these introductory sections stirred my excitement to press on with the story.

I don’t want to say much more about them as I would venture into spoiler territory. I’ll only say that I am excited about our discussion next Sunday!

Please link to your discussion post below so that we can all visit and chat about this section of the book.

Read for The Vintage Science Fiction Month. Check out the tab at the top of Andrea’s site to see other vintage science fiction novels reviewed during this event and feel free to jump right in and participate.

This book is also a selection for The 2012 Science Fiction Experience which takes place January through February and is also open for your participation.