45 thoughts on “And the NPR Science Fiction/Fantasy Winners Are…”

1. I was just happy to see that four of the ten that I voted for made it to the top ten. I was also glad to see sci-fi ranking above fantasy because I definitely prefer sci-fi books (and I can’t stand that fantasy has been taken over by paranormal).

   1. I had three that I voted for make the Top 10, and had I not chosen to leave aside the series because of not reading every novel in a series I would have for them simply because of the first novels in the series I would have had one more (Song of Ice and Fire) and possibly two (Dune Chronicles).

      I’m happy to see science fiction do so well because it is my ‘first love’ as far as genres go, but it surprises me and throws a bit more suspicion on whether or not people voted for “favorites” or what they thought was “best”. I voted for American Gods, for example, which I have very high esteem for, when Neverwhere is really my favorite Neil Gaiman novel.

2. Then again.. there are 100 books on the list, one can only vote for “best” or even “favorite” of those you read… how many people have actually read all 100 books to be able to vote fairly?? How would I know if Dragonflight is actually better than the Time Machine if I haven’t read the time machine?… when people vote on the emmy’s or oscars they are sent all the movies to see and are expected to watch them ALL before voting… Here a list is tossed up and I will wager that no one has actually read ALL the books to vote properly… so of course most voted for the ones they read that they really enjoyed..because they cannot compare it to the others…….
   (dragonflight made 33.. I guess that was better then 100 lol)

   1. I hear you, that is one of the things I think several of us brought up in the last post. It makes the list a fun one to read and discuss but does bring up much to doubt as far as its legitimacy goes. It is interesting to see what a majority (in this case over 60,000 people) consider “favorite” sf/f books but at the same time you have to wonder how many people (like myself) had only read a handful over 10 of the books listed to start with.

      What we all can do is argue/discuss the placement of books we’ve read in relation to other books we’ve read, and here I see some wild differences between how I would have ranked them.

      Most frustrating to me remains the fact that they should have done a separate list for science fiction and for fantasy.

      1. and so where would something like Dragonflight go? it really has aspects of both Fantasy and sci-fi !

         1. I think many people classify it as science fiction despite its fantasy elements and that is the kind of thing the “panel of experts” could be better used to do with those novels that blend genres that way.

            As it was first published in a “science fiction” maybe that would be the tie breaker on which genre to place it in?

            1. hmmm.. well i guess, being as I’m no expert.. but having read ALL the Pern books I found very little sci fi in them..some time travel and finding “how they got to that planet” etc but 95% of the story was their life on Pern If the fact it takes place on another “planet” rather then and imaginary place ..maybe that it.

               1. I’m not one either, Deslily, I’ve just always had it referred to as science fiction all my life and so despite them riding winged creatures on the cover I have always thought of it as science fiction.

3. Interesting – my reactions were somewhat different. I was surprised Old Man’s War ended up on the list at all. (I read and enjoyed OMW and its successors but I wouldn’t put it on a list of all-time greats.)

   I assumed LotR would #1, because it is the ur-text of modern fantasy, arguably the popular work speculative fiction of the past 50 years. Even without the movies (of which I have very mixed feelings about the second and third.)

   Dune belongs on the list despite its sequels, which became poorer and poorer (to say nothing of the son’s prequels).

   I couldn’t help but roll my eyes at the presence of Zahn, Brooks and Feist though.

   1. Dune is one of the books that I think should have been listed by itself and not as a part of a series. In fact I wish they had just made the decision to only list individual books. Like their choices with YA, book “series” (with a broad definition) could have been another “favorites” list to look at on a different poll.

      For me OMW would have to be on the list and much higher because it is of course a favorite but also because for me (as it did for many others) it came along at a perfect time to rejuvenate my love for science fiction. I think Scalzi’s novels by and large have helped spark some life into a particular type of science fiction and his work has inspired me to go back and read more Heinlein as well, and for that I will always be grateful.

      I’m not surprised that the Zahn trilogy is on a list of “favorites” because it is a very good Star Wars trilogy in its own right but it really started up the whole Star Wars novel franchise, something Lucas had not let happen after the few Brian Daley and Alan Dean Foster books that had come out during the original trilogy. There are A LOT of Star Wars book fans out there and I imagine this trilogy is something many of them would point to as a “favorite”. Not sure they would be on my own personal Top 100 of science fiction, despite really liking them.

      1. I’m kind of surprised that they listed the Dune series, but they only listed “The Crystal Cave” from Mary Stewart’s Merlin trilogy.

         I do understand why Huxley and Orwell continue to make the list, as I greatly enjoyed both. At the same time, I appreciated Orwell far more before I realized that half of his story was ripped off of Zamyatin’s “We,” which people rarely read.

         1. And more people should read “We”, because it is an excellent story, even more so given when it was written.

4. This is how I’d expect a list to look if the books had been selected based solely on reviews and sales figures instead of by people who have read them. Succinctly put, most of the selections and their placement are a load of rubbish. Lots of people wasted a huge amount of their (and our) time on this, in the ned, worthless exercise. Bah.

   1. Actually that would be really interesting, to see this list of books rearranged by their sales figures. Some would certainly remain in a similar spot but I think you’d be surprised which would jump up or down based on those figures.

      I don’t see it as a waste of time mostly because I enjoy talking about science fiction and fantasy and LOVE book lists, so for me NPR accomplished just what they set out to do, despite how truly flawed I think the execution of the poll was.

      And despite my several complaints last time and other complaints this time about what is on the list and where it is at, I feel like I’m in one of the “have my cake and eat it too” conversations. I was just griping about the Oscars with Deslily yesterday on email, particularly how many “popular” films (those with big box office) are completely ignored come awards time for lesser known and lesser seen movies that seem often to be picked by some sort of cultural elite. And yet here I am complaining about just the opposite with this situation. 🙂

5. as I was reading the list I was curious as to what percentage of these books were published w/in the last 5 years, and then 10 years. I almost find the constant re-creation of these lists redundant, and fairly useless. Thinking of Deslilly’s concern as to whether people have read even a majority of these books to be able to vote, I would guess most people of any age/interest have; This would increase the chances that most books will be the classics, the books everyone is told to read in order to be taken seriously, the canon of the genre.

   I agree, it is nice to see a book/author. and why after saying no monsters Frankenstein is on there? And will Ender’s Game and Lord of the Rings end up on the YA list, too? I am guessing the YA list will be much more Fantasy heavy.

   1. Neither should end up on the YA list in my opinion. I know they’ve been marketing “adult” science fiction to youth lately with re-released of these books in YA versions but since both were written for an older audience (unlike The Hobbit which was written for children) then I would hope the “experts” would keep it off the list.

      I certainly think most people probably (hopefully) read the Top 10 that they voted for, but I do think it is interesting to think what this might look like if it was solely collected from folks who had read every book on the list.

      Which is why as much fun as this kind of stuff is for me, I much prefer lists like Patrick Rothfuss’ recommended list because it is made up solely of stuff he has read and likes well enough to tell others to read it. It doesn’t matter if a person agrees with his tastes or not, it simply gives you an idea of what a successful writer like he really likes. I’d love to see all of my favorite authors do similar lists. Only I would want to make sure that they were as sincere as I suspect Rothfuss is with his list. I would want to see them being fans and not try to be “respectable” with their lists.

      I think you are dead on with that. I suspect there might be more Fantasy on the YA list than anything else just because so much popular YA literature has some sort of fantastical element to it.

6. For my high school reading, I wasn’t required to read 1984 or Frankenstein. Instead we did Animal Farm and Dracula. However, as a lover of the written word, as well as one with a passion to read Classics, I read 1984 and Frankenstein of my own desire.

   Orwell’s dytopic novel had such an impact on my young reading life. For one, it was the first dystopic novel I’d ever read. I thought that Orwell’s creation was quasi-prophetic, and now looking back, it’s easy to see how some things really are as he thought. In addition, I found the characters engaging, and double-speak and thought-crimes utterly fascinating.

   Frankenstein, on the other had, was equally harrowing. Shelley’s command of unsettling language had me on edge for much of the read. The book was unlike any movie rendition I’d ever seen. And, once again, the characters were engaging.

   That said, I think I happened to vote for both of these in my 10 votes. However, I suspect many vote because they’re familiar and/or because they’re Classics.

   The exclusion of YA is baffling to me. I’m not entirely sure I even understand YA. Couldn’t anything technically be considered YA, assuming any young adult reads it? This was a ridiculous limitation, in my opinion. And what’s more, I’m pretty sure the YA classification is generally given by the Publisher. For example, Zusak’s The Book Thief is YA in America, but marketed as Adult Fiction in Australia. Even more baffling, it’s listed on the NYTimes best seller list in Children’s Chapter Books. What a wonderful, crazy, messed up system.

   Nevertheless, it’s good to see LOTR at #1.

   1. Glad to see you voted for both of those in your Top 10 as it sounds like you really and truly consider them favorites. I’m just curious how many others did the same. Although the more I think of it the more I wonder if books like 1984 and Brave New World are actually some of the more “legitimate” books in the Top 10 because I cannot imagine why anyone would vote for them if they hadn’t read them. Hmmm…very interesting….

      I like Frankenstein and honestly wouldn’t have balked at it being on the SF list if the two lists were separated.

      All the classification systems are certainly messed up, but I do think there are books that are truly YA in scope and content although I think those lines are very blurred. And publishers do have a lot to do with that, for sure.

      I am actually glad they kept the YA out of it because it was already too messed up with fantasy and science fiction together. Again, had they separated those two categories out I think the inclusion of YA would have been just fine. As it is their reasoning makes sense–they want to do a separate YA poll, so it kind of muddies the waters of their plans to lump it in with this lot too.

      I need to have my wife finish reading me The Book Thief. I read to her often and don’t have her read to me very often but she likes that book so much that she wanted me to experience it. We started but left off and haven’t gotten back to it.

7. My guess is most voters have read 1/3 or less of the original list. Many may have voted for books they have heard about as being good or important (how else can we see the two Orwell books high on a list of “favorites”? but then I don’t even consider Animal Farm as SF-F, it’s political satire, plain and simple. I agree with L.

   Sorry if I seem negative lately, I’ll try to do better. I’m just kinda irked by stuff, I guess. In thinking about this list some more, it feels a lot like a list of favorite music in which some big names make it and after that it’s mostly stuff produced in the last 20 years. No, I’m not saying the SF-F list has stuff from the last 20 years, it’s just an analogy. Also note the only Arthur C. Clarke book isn’t one of his best, it’s the one that was made into a popular and well-known movie.

   And where is David Brin, Robert Silverberg, dozens of others?

   I agree it seems likely the YA list will be fantasy-heavy.

   1. Having a varied opinion is what makes these discussions fun, Richard. Apology accepted although I don’t think it is necessary.

      There are lots of authors (Vance to name one) that I think would have been included and should have been had the genres been separated.

      I bet you are right on your estimations. I know I sat down to do a Top 100 list in each category of just my own personal favorites. If I leave out short story collections it is hard for me to come close to getting 100 books in each category (at least just going off the top of my head). I think this is largely because I have read many SFF books but I read so much other stuff too and I went through a 10-15 year lull in my late teens and early 20’s where I didn’t read more than a handful of books every year and often those included books I was re-reading.

      My own personal lists would probably be much more headache inducing for well-read SFF fans because in the midst of well-respected books by well-respected authors I certainly have some long time favorites that don’t measure up. 🙂

8. I was so happy to see the list today. I personally don’t have any issues with the list, but that’s probably because I’m not as well-read as many others. I for one do really and truly consider the Orwell and Huxley favorite novels, but of course I can’t speak for others. I’ve read 1984 twice and was completely engrossed both times. Brave New World is just as compelling (and also a bit more bizarre.) I have to believe that LOTR would still be number one without the movies. I’ve noticed comments looking down on one of my favorites, Terry Brooks. Accusations of his books a being LOTR copycat are understandable, but since Tolkien has passed on, I need to get some of that good stuff somewhere :-).

   1. I wouldn’t be put off by anyone criticizing the books you like, Brooks in this case, because again this was a list of people’s favorites and Brooks has been and continues to be a very popular author and his series has stayed in print and continues to be read.

      Glad to see another who feels Orwell and Huxley deserve to be there simply because it puts the lie to my assumptions. 🙂

      I think LOTR would be as well (although I doubt I would have read it yet without the films so it probably wouldn’t have been on my list). I found the guy whose post I linked to’s comment about Do Androids Dream interesting–would it have fared higher in the votes if it was labeled as Blade Runner?

9. Oh boy. I have a lot of reading to do. I’ll have to compare this list to my 1001 list. But I have a lot of reading to do. I’ve only read 7 from list list. Yikes!

   1. I’ve read a bit more than that, but I have a lot of reading to do too.

      1. Can I count Dune? Or do I need to read all of them?

         1. I counted each on as ‘read’ if I had read at least one book in the series because I don’t think series should have been listed at all, just individual volumes.

10. With over 60,000 votes you expect to see many of the usually suspects in the lineup. What I look for is a book I haven’t heard about that’s done well. For example, The Kingkiller Chronicles at #18, a title that is completely new to me.

    I noticed that Replay didn’t make the cut, and a whole lot of series books did. I think they should have excluded series unless they make up a complete story like Lord of the Rings, Foundation, etc. Replay by Ken Grimwood, his only real hit, had to compete against authors who have written lots of books with legions of fans.

    Allowing series only promotes the popularity of the series, but doesn’t identify which books really stand out. If Lois McMaster Bujold titles had been entered in separately, would any of them have made the list? If they had, it would be a better validation of their quality.

    I think this is a good list, but it’s only a popular vote of the moment. The real identification of classic books is when they survive survey after survey over years and decades. I believe some of these books on the NPR list will disappear and even go out of print.

    1. Yes, with that turnout it is not surprising.

       The first of the Kingkiller Chronicles is A Name on the Wind. It is very good. You can see my review here:

       http://www.stainlesssteeldroppings.com/the-name-of-the-wind-patrick-rothfuss

       I haven’t read the second of the trilogy yet, but do have it on my shelf patiently waiting.

       I’m really looking forward to reading Replay when it comes up in a few months on the book club reading list.

       I too don’t like the series option. There should have been one book from a series and left it at that.

       I think thought that when you look at at least the top 10 those books are largely unlikely to go out of print any time soon and many of them have survived quite a long test of time.

11. In the end all I can do is sigh…I just don’t think understood the whole ” favorite ” vs. ” best of ” instruction. In the end this list comes out looking very predictable.

    LOTR comes in first. That’s about the only choice in I can agree with. Everything after that… nope. This list is rubbish. What I thought sounded like a cool idea turned into a complete waste.

    As for Terry Brooks. He’s a damn fine writer. You don’t have a career like he has by being some hack. It seems for some LOTR fans he’s their whipping boy to crack on. Like his success some how diminishes Tolkien’s work. Give me a break.

    I also can’t help but feel works that have been adapted into film or television have gotten a big boost to their ranking over non-adapters. It’s stands to reason that would happen in a popularity contest such as this.

    I think I’ll go back to reading one of the top 100 books now. The Way of Kings. Which is completely ridiculous is on this list. 🙂 Book 1 of a 10 book series does not belong on a list like this no matter how much I like the author. It’s only been out a year. I mean that’s just too new to be on a best of all time list to me.

    1. Ah, but remember your own point, this was a “favorites” list not a “best of”, so it isn’t really surprising at all that Way of Kings is on this list being the latest of a very popular author and a very well received book. 😉

       I haven’t read Brooks, but I tend to agree that authors like Brooks and Anthony and others who I have not read but who keep being read and keep being talked about are at the very least passable story tellers or people wouldn’t keep reading them and there wouldn’t be vocal groups of fans touting them as their favorites. Like it or not, their staying power thus far makes them valid choices on a “favorites” list.

       I figured you’d be a little more pleased with the top 10: Card, Gaiman, Martin, Tolkien? Or is it their placement in the top 10 you aren’t happy with?

       I think the important thing to keep in mind is that this is essentially a Summer Reading List. NPR was asking readers to vote for their favorite summer reads, this year in the SFF categories. I too think the list has some strange choices on it, but if you look at the breakdown thousands of people voted for almost every book on this list, so it can’t be all bad.

12. And by “breakdown” I mean these released numbers:

    Out of 60,000 voters

    #1 The Lord of the Rings. 29,701
    #2, The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy 20,069 votes.
    #3, Ender’s Game, at 16,141 votes.
    #11 The Princess Bride over 7,000 votes
    #100 The Space Trilogy 1,452 votes

    As John pointed out on the Classic SF Book Club Site:

    “So that means the vast majority of rankings were in the 1,452-7,000 range.”

    1. …and one wonders if LOtR would have gotten that many votes if the movies were not such a hit .

       1. It is hard to tell, but Lord of the Rings has always been very popular. The movies certainly put it on everyone’s radar, but I don’t find it too hard to believe that 30,000 people actually voted for the books and did so because they liked it.

          Also keep in mind that these all voted for it as part of their Top 10 favorites. It doesn’t necessarily mean that it would have been their #1, but because so many considered it one of their top 10 favorites it took the number one slot just because it was on more lists than any other book.

13. One other thing I think we have to keep in mind is that this was a poll conducted by NPR. Making some broad assumptions, NPR’s core audience is not science fiction and fantasy geeks. Despite the fact that this poll was mentioned on a number of SFF sites, I first heard about it while listening to NPR and checked it out because of that. If a large number of their listeners came over and voted, I wonder how that demographic influenced the voting.

    Again, these are sweeping generalizations, but I would bet the average book loving NPR reader may have read “some” science fiction and fantasy but not nearly as much as someone like I have. And I am not well read in the genres at all. So keeping with these generalizations, perhaps it is not so surprising that so many older classics, and some with tenuous connections to SFF, made it onto the list and made it so high up on the list. I would imagine there are several NPR listeners who wouldn’t claim to be fans of SFF who might have come looked at the list and saw things like 1984 and Animal Farm and Brave New World and thought “oh, I guess I do like that kind of SFF” and actually voted for it.

    I know many of you are really annoyed with this list. Oddly enough the more I ponder it the more interesting it becomes to me. It isn’t that it has any practical use, but it makes me wish they had done this with more information being gathered so that a portrait could be painted of the type of person that voted, etc. It would be fascinating.

    And let’s be honest, who cares about “practical use”. Book lists are fun because talking about books is fun and I for one feel these last two weeks of discussion about SFF have been worth it, if only because we may not have come together at this period of time and talked about it otherwise.

    1. I’m also wondering how much of an impact the list will have on getting the non-fans into the genres. A lot of people use best-of lists to decide what to read.

       1. I’m not sure. People rarely do follow up with these kind of things. It would be nice to see an NPR staffer put up and moderate a post or forum that encourages people to come back and talk about any books they may read from the list that they were motivated to read because of the list.

14. Woot! I’m glad to see Robin McKinley’s Sunshine, although somehow I’m confused it was even considered for the list (the books around it seem pretty heavyweight.) I really liked The Blue Sword, but I guess that would be considered YA. It’s funny, most of the books I thought of would be YA like Le Guin’s Earthsea books.
    I didn’t like seeing the Outlander series, but I guess that series can fit in anywhere.

    1. Haven’t read Sunshine but I’ve heard good things about it. I have to assume it either has SF elements to it or is more of an urban fantasy? Personally I would have liked to see the expert panel weed out any zombie and vampire related stuff as well, but that is just me.

       1. It’s more of an urban vampire fantasy, which I normally don’t read. However, McKinley is an excellent writer and has the talent required to make Sunshine stand out from other books with similar subject matter. I don’t mind vampires and zombies, and certainly wouldn’t rule them out of the sci-fi/fantasy category. I just don’t read about them because as a whole the authors of vampire/zombie books tend to lack talent, originality, and a solid grasp on the English language.

          1. I don’t mind some urban fantasy but it is a sub-genre that for me is one where ‘a little goes a long way’. I don’t think I would have minded certain books being in this list so much if they had went ahead and split up fantasy and science fiction. But again I am minding less and less as I remind myself that this is about people’s favorites and obviously many thousand people voted for these books so who am I to grouse.

15. I’m just relieved there is nothing like TWILIGHT on there. It looks like actual intelligent readers voted on this list. That makes me happy.

    I’m also happy I’ve actually read some of these and I agree on them all. I see a great many I need to add to my to be read list. Thanks for posting the list Carl and I don’t mean that sarcastically. Well, maybe a little. 😀

    1. That is true, I think I would have been a little bit sick in the back of my throat to see the Twilight books on there. And you are welcome, because you know authors and publishers always send me a kick back when I tempt others to buy books. 😉

16. Ooo I’m reading the reaction post now. How very interesting. Now, while I’ve never read it so take it for a grain of salt, would you consider Watership Down a YA title? I always thought it was. For some reason, the whole talking rabbit thing never appealed to me – although I loved Mrs Frisby and Rats of Nimh so hmmm.

    1. I always thought Watership Down was a YA title, like Where the Red Fern Grows and others. And again it is not one I felt should have been on this list. Neither it or Animal Farm is fantasy or SF in my opinion simply because it features animals in the place of humans.

17. Five of the ones I voted for made the top 10! lol I’m delighted and surprised, though you are right, too, Carl: most of them are classics, though that said, they are ones we turn to, to judge new books by, and they are ones that set the marker for their respective fantasy and sci-fi genres. You can’t really be considered well-read if you haven’t read The Foundation Trilogy, some Heinlein, or Tolkien or now, Neil Gaiman. I think we have to remember that this is a list of books we like, that we think are the best, and so I think it is a fan-based list, with a little more leaning to trying to appear well-read (I’ve never read 1984, but my sister had to in school.)

    Personally, I was sad to see Swan Song by Robert McCammon not on the list, because I’ve read both and have always thought it was far better than The Stand, which I also loved. I think this was a subjective list because it took what was most widely read on the whole in both genres, not necessarily what is the best (the top 10 though are among the best anyway) written. I am surprised at the lack of Patricia McKillip, and the fantasy of Ursula K LeGuin – I understand her fantasy is considered Young adult, but it’s still recommended fantasy reading. It should be on there.

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